Formal e-book publishing is one thing, perhaps ISBNs could work. However, where they cannot work is amongst a huge tide of electronic publishing that includes, articles, OCRed texts, photographs/graphics, audio-visual, historical records, in short the etc’s., of our electronic age.

My original passion was archaeology, fragments of cooking pots, discarded objects, broken fragmentary remnants of the past. Recently in Britain I met an amazing amateur field-walker. He collects surface fragments, brought up by ploughing, records their position and maps them. His achievements now being written into a paper are awe-inspiring.

With today’s technology he could do nearly all his recording with a cell phone. Ie spots a fragment, associates it with a GPS position (it has to be more accurate than the present limited system), takes a photo of it, uses the internet to get an ID, and also send the information to be stored.

This is the near future.

If he then writes his paper, it can be ID, but every reference to an object, each photograph, each location reference on a digital map, can be associated in order thanks to having a simple thing like an ID. ISBNs could never do that, they were not intended to do so.

What distinguishes an e-book, from a business letter, from an archaeological object, is not having a special number, but a different place that registers that number.

I am using this example as to placing e-books within their greater context (the communications revolution). It is not hard providing world-wide unique Ids. They can follow any number of forms. ISBNs are designed for the much slower age of print, that is their only problem

What is an e-book and what isn’t is something of an artificial division. I do not believe ISBNs have a future in this area, but they could have, if integration is allowed. That is if some means are found to make ISBNs compatible to other sources of IDs a form of mutual recognition.

And it would not be hard.

Consider the ISBN data base simply spawning a free registry for e-books, MS and other publishable material. That would serve everyone’s interest. Then paying a fee for promotion to ISBN would in fact be a promotional tool.

Andy W. Bowker, please consider this as a viable option, integration of ISBNs with other forms of IDs would serve to integrate electronic and paper books together. There are issues, but if you are interested write to me greg.schofield @ iinet.net.au, or reply to this thread.

The same goes for anyone else. It is not the mechanism of producing IDs, but what they get attached to that needs to be hammered out. Meanwhile I will try and write an article on the issue for Teleread.

But my point from yesterday, which I apparently failed at making, was that while I use BIP and the added information Bowker includes in there, *we pay for* it in the database subscription. All that additional information, that’s something that *Bowker* chooses to do and *we* choose pay for. The publisher’s *shouldn’t* be covering those extra costs.

What I realized yesterday after I posted that was that I didn’t ever comment on ISBNs and ebooks. As for that, I don’t think each format needs it’s own ISBN. A note somewhere saying ‘released in x, y, and z formats’ would be nice so that buyers would know if the format they need is even available. Of course as formats are added that information would need to be updated and that could be a nightmare, so I don’t know how practical the idea is. But a note would be nice. Ideally, of course, the multi-format idiocy will go away and it’ll be a moot point. But until that happens, no I don’t think each format needs an ISBN.

If the ebook is revised/changed, then yes, new ISBN would be appropriate just the same as for a new version of the paper book.

If the publishing world wants to settle on some form of edition specific ID other than ISBN, go for it. But consistency across ebookland would be just as nice in this as it would be in a file format. I suspect that if ebookland moves to some other ID, Bowker will either include that information right along side ISBNs or lose all relevancy as publishing moves from print to digital.

As for professional reviews:
I buy reference books and if I’m looking at spending $200-$3500 on a set of books, I want as much information as I can get about that set before buying. The BIP database has multiple reviews in one place, so I don’t have to track down the individual reviews in multiple issues of multiple journals scattered around the library in other people’s inboxes. Again, *we pay* for that in the subscription.

Multi-volume reference sets are not the kind of thing I’m going to find reviewed at most book blogs. Niche product, niche reviews, niche buyer. I don’t think that makes my need for this information any less valid.

If I’m looking for information for Reader’s Advisory, then yes absolutely I look online. Although I still like to compare those reviews with the reviews in Booklist and Library Journal. Frequently they will include a comment for teen/YA readers about levels of sex or violence. Those are useful for the senior and/or conservative adult population as well. So yes, niche here as well because I’m mostly just looking for an idea of what the book is about so I know who to suggest it to and who not to suggest it to.

>>>I love that BIP online includes professional reviews.

Some could see that as snobbery. Teleread has already done the death of pro reviews here.

I still see no justification for Bowker’s continued existence.

Whether it’s BIP or Amazon, 75% or more of my searching is by ISBN. If as I’m reading book reviews I see something that looks interesting, or I think a friend would like, I pass the information along to them in the form of an email usually with a subject like book rec, and the body is just an ISBN.

In searching the library catalog, if I’m checking before doing an order, I use an ISBN.

For me, and most of the people I know, ISBNs are one of the primary ways we search for and share information about books.

I love that BIP online includes professional reviews. That said, I think Andy Weissberg left something out of his loving description of all the value added things that BIP does with your ISBN. He neglected to mention that BIP online is a subscription database with a fairly hefty price tag. Those value added things they do, I’m willing to be FAR more of that cost is paid for by subscriber than by ISBN buyers.

As for #3, call me heartless, but the publisher should take care of that. Don’t clean up their data for them and they should learn pretty quick.

For myself: not in years. I turn to the Net, I turn to abebooks, I turn to ebay, I turn to the NYPL.

I search by author, I search by title.

I have NEVER searched by publisher or ISBN.

Why should ISBN even have a place in the ebook world? Can someone answer *that* question first of all? (Hey, sneer all you want, Bowker, at what you might consider an ignorant question, but you have to justify *your existence* now. Welcome to the end of your monopoly, baby.)

What is more this can be used for any document, not just e-books.

Plus we need Ids that are XML compliant and can be used to identify fragments of texts.

Please have a try of this simple script:
http://www.lestec.com.au/aui/auilist.cgi

The IDs always begin with an alphabetical letter, they are case insensitive (retaining the same value in upper and lower case).

The script is simple, one, and only one, copy per server is the rule — it uses the IP address and a date, simply encoded and producing IDs sequentially.

I helped design this system precisely because ISBN cannot work it is a good system for print, but not for electronics, for it is not just e-books but most files that need to be unambiguously identified.

Our idea, was to aim towards an independent electronic registry of publications, authors, translators, publishers and most important editions — so that any work can be found unambiguously.

All of your points are well-taken. In addition to this response, I have asked my colleagues at Nielsen, BISG and the International ISBN Agency to work with me to formulate a response.

I can, however, at this time, directly respond to your questions pertaining to “a breakdown of how much of that $400 or $275 goes to various people, and for what services”…

1) In addition to its Books In Print databases and web-based platforms, Bowker continues to invest in new and improved systems and platforms that enable publishers to maximize the discoverability of their books and title information within thousands of bibliographic catalogues, retail channels, search engines, social networks and others used by consumers, library patrons, librarians and others to find and purchase books.

Our newest platform, MyIdentifiers.com enables publishers to freely search optimize their titles in conjunction with ISBN purchases while also enabling publishers to channel those listings to places where they sell their books. Bowker also operates faceted search technologies like Aquabrowser which help refine and deliver results information about published titles during searches in both library and retail markets and locations.

2) Through MyIdentifiers.com, and especially for self-publishers and authors, Bowker makes it easy to provision and manage title-data that we also immediately optimize for discoverability and search engine indexing via our new SEO Title Card offerings (like a free mini search optimized web site) and distribution to thousands of channels, retailers, etc. as described above. These tools and services are included with ISBN purchases.

3) Quite often, publishers provide data that is incorrect, has mis-spellings, wholesaler/distributor detail and other critical elements necessary to correctly inform the supply chain and consumers directly about key attributes associated with their titles. Bowker maintains a full-time staff dedicated to ensuring data quality on behalf of publishers.

4) Bowker also enriches publisher title data with other critical elements that enhance discoverability within bibliographic catalogues, including and not limited to reviews, citations, media-list mentions, best seller list inclusions, etc. All at no additional cost to the publisher when it comes to the inclusion of this detail within the title record in Books in Print which ultimately is what is made discoverable in the channels that publishers want their books to be contained and highlighted within.

So, basically for $40 per title as you’ve described, publishers can uniquely identify their titles across the supply chain to comply with ISO-approved industry standards, effectively market their titles (e or p).

Compare that $40 to what it would cost a publisher to buy keyword advertising on search engines, issue a press release over a major newswire, create a web site, etc., and its quite easier to rationalize.

As for needing separate ISBNs per each format, we agree with our colleagues that without doing so, the downstream implications of not being able to provide consumers with accurate identification of a product they want or need based on the reading device they use and within structured bibliographic catalogues, are major.

Again, I will be circling back with my colleagues but wanted to respond to this as quickly as possible.

Andy W.
Bowker

Certainly requiring an additional ISBN for each format would make me reluctant to consider adding additional formats (can anyone say ‘hurdle to adopting ePub?’).

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. The ISBN system is definitely not optimal for eBooks, but we’ve been able to work with it. Publishers who want to register separate ISBNs per format can do so. Those who don’t, don’t have to. The next customer who tells me she’s confused will be my first.

Rob Preece
Publisher, http://www.BooksForABuck.com