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	<title>Comments on: Easy-to-learn publishing tool from Feedbooks: Reach Kindles, Sony Readers, iPhones&#8212;and help the ePub standard</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/</link>
	<description>News &#38; views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics</description>
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		<title>By: Hadrien</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993524</link>
		<dc:creator>Hadrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993524</guid>
		<description>I never said anything like this: I said that it will work better with something capable of correctly handling Javascript.
There&#039;s nothing that I can do on my end for example to add a paste event in Firefox, therefore I use work-arounds that aren&#039;t optimal but still work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never said anything like this: I said that it will work better with something capable of correctly handling Javascript.<br />
There&#8217;s nothing that I can do on my end for example to add a paste event in Firefox, therefore I use work-arounds that aren&#8217;t optimal but still work.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993494</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993494</guid>
		<description>Hadrien- I see, so you&#039;re one of those who believes it&#039;s a good idea to build a website, then demand visitors use the browser of YOUR choice to view it. If I use one of the most popular browsers in use today, then it&#039;s MY fault your site doesn&#039;t work well. Gotcha.

The chance I&#039;m going to change browsers to view any website is zero. Build a visitor friendly website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hadrien- I see, so you&#8217;re one of those who believes it&#8217;s a good idea to build a website, then demand visitors use the browser of YOUR choice to view it. If I use one of the most popular browsers in use today, then it&#8217;s MY fault your site doesn&#8217;t work well. Gotcha.</p>
<p>The chance I&#8217;m going to change browsers to view any website is zero. Build a visitor friendly website.</p>
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		<title>By: Hadrien</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993429</link>
		<dc:creator>Hadrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993429</guid>
		<description>Logan: Sure but based on the tests that I did so far, a fully automatic system might require more work than manually creating the structure of the text (corrections take longer) and is usually more complex from a user experience perspective too.
Something that isn&#039;t fully automatic (with regexp and XPath) can work much better, but it&#039;s only suited for advanced users.

Christine: most of the problems that you seem to experience are probably based on your browser too. Keep in mind that IE is much slower than any other browser for Javascript and parsing a very long text will be significantly longer in this browser, and there&#039;s basically no &quot;paste event&quot; in Firefox. Try any Webkit based browser and you&#039;ll see a massive performance boost. I can work around some of these problems to improve things but it&#039;ll always depend on the browser and the client&#039;s ressources too. Catching a paste event, sanitizing the text (for example removing all the trash that you get when you&#039;re pasting from Word) and white-listing the XHTML are actions that are far from trivial yet necessary. As I&#039;ve pointed out though, we could connect our service to pretty much anything: offering a desktop component might be a good alternative in this case (or even a RIA client based on Webkit).
As for the structure of the text, I&#039;ll work on drag&amp;drop to re-order the element but as David said in his post, the easiest thing to do is to work on the structure first and then the content. We have some very complex books with dozens of sections inside various parts/chapters that were directly uploaded this way by their author.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logan: Sure but based on the tests that I did so far, a fully automatic system might require more work than manually creating the structure of the text (corrections take longer) and is usually more complex from a user experience perspective too.<br />
Something that isn&#8217;t fully automatic (with regexp and XPath) can work much better, but it&#8217;s only suited for advanced users.</p>
<p>Christine: most of the problems that you seem to experience are probably based on your browser too. Keep in mind that IE is much slower than any other browser for Javascript and parsing a very long text will be significantly longer in this browser, and there&#8217;s basically no &#8220;paste event&#8221; in Firefox. Try any Webkit based browser and you&#8217;ll see a massive performance boost. I can work around some of these problems to improve things but it&#8217;ll always depend on the browser and the client&#8217;s ressources too. Catching a paste event, sanitizing the text (for example removing all the trash that you get when you&#8217;re pasting from Word) and white-listing the XHTML are actions that are far from trivial yet necessary. As I&#8217;ve pointed out though, we could connect our service to pretty much anything: offering a desktop component might be a good alternative in this case (or even a RIA client based on Webkit).<br />
As for the structure of the text, I&#8217;ll work on drag&amp;drop to re-order the element but as David said in his post, the easiest thing to do is to work on the structure first and then the content. We have some very complex books with dozens of sections inside various parts/chapters that were directly uploaded this way by their author.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rothman</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993427</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rothman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993427</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Christine, but here we&#039;re talking about public libraries BOTH lending and giving away books. And I&#039;m saying libraries, plural. Libraries can do that now, but I&#039;d like to see copyright terms shortened, which would encourage more of this. It would also help for libraries to have more resources to digitize. Of course, libraries could continue to offer main recent books, which most of their users prefer. To return to the giveaways, I want the material to be unencumbered so public domain sites, too, could use it. David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Christine, but here we&#8217;re talking about public libraries BOTH lending and giving away books. And I&#8217;m saying libraries, plural. Libraries can do that now, but I&#8217;d like to see copyright terms shortened, which would encourage more of this. It would also help for libraries to have more resources to digitize. Of course, libraries could continue to offer main recent books, which most of their users prefer. To return to the giveaways, I want the material to be unencumbered so public domain sites, too, could use it. David</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993153</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993153</guid>
		<description>David - your version of a library that just gives away public domain books is already happening all over the internet. I understand you&#039;re talking about adding to what is in the public domain, but if that happened, those books would be added to all the current public domain websites already out there. The idea of a lending library is to be able to access NEW books without having to buy (or steal) them. Multiple people sharing the cost and the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; your version of a library that just gives away public domain books is already happening all over the internet. I understand you&#8217;re talking about adding to what is in the public domain, but if that happened, those books would be added to all the current public domain websites already out there. The idea of a lending library is to be able to access NEW books without having to buy (or steal) them. Multiple people sharing the cost and the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993150</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993150</guid>
		<description>David - Thanks for the reply. :)

Re adding books to feedbooks: it&#039;s the user interface that is the problem. It is difficult to work with the way it is set up. It&#039;s slow and you can&#039;t go back and add in parts after you pass that section, and you can&#039;t look at an entire chapter at once (without difficulty getting it open), and the darn view jumps to the top so it&#039;s nearly impossible to accomplish anything on a particular section. I sent my complaints with suggestions to make it better, but never heard back. I like very much that all the books end up with tables of contents that work well (mobipocket books), and that&#039;s all fine if you are just copying and pasting text without trying to do any further formatting. If you want to do more, it&#039;s very difficult. It could be made much easier to work with and still achieve the same goals. 

As I said, that was my experience a few months back. And I haven&#039;t been back to try again. Nor do I see any reason to unless I see a feedbooks announcement about the new easy user interface.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; Thanks for the reply. <img src='http://www.teleread.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Re adding books to feedbooks: it&#8217;s the user interface that is the problem. It is difficult to work with the way it is set up. It&#8217;s slow and you can&#8217;t go back and add in parts after you pass that section, and you can&#8217;t look at an entire chapter at once (without difficulty getting it open), and the darn view jumps to the top so it&#8217;s nearly impossible to accomplish anything on a particular section. I sent my complaints with suggestions to make it better, but never heard back. I like very much that all the books end up with tables of contents that work well (mobipocket books), and that&#8217;s all fine if you are just copying and pasting text without trying to do any further formatting. If you want to do more, it&#8217;s very difficult. It could be made much easier to work with and still achieve the same goals. </p>
<p>As I said, that was my experience a few months back. And I haven&#8217;t been back to try again. Nor do I see any reason to unless I see a feedbooks announcement about the new easy user interface.</p>
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		<title>By: Logan Kennelly</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-993032</link>
		<dc:creator>Logan Kennelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-993032</guid>
		<description>Hadrien, I agree with your comments on a &quot;better source format&quot;, but that doesn&#039;t preclude converting old formats into the Feedbooks format. A few processing heuristics (e.g., detecting chapters and footnotes) would eliminate a significant amount of the work on the author&#039;s part. The author would obviously have to review the end result and would inevitably make corrections, but it would be a much smoother process.

Of course, it&#039;s a gigantic pain to detect (and proofread) the semantic reason for italics (emphasis, foreign words, onomatopoeia, titles, etc.)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hadrien, I agree with your comments on a &#8220;better source format&#8221;, but that doesn&#8217;t preclude converting old formats into the Feedbooks format. A few processing heuristics (e.g., detecting chapters and footnotes) would eliminate a significant amount of the work on the author&#8217;s part. The author would obviously have to review the end result and would inevitably make corrections, but it would be a much smoother process.</p>
<p>Of course, it&#8217;s a gigantic pain to detect (and proofread) the semantic reason for italics (emphasis, foreign words, onomatopoeia, titles, etc.)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Hadrien</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-992909</link>
		<dc:creator>Hadrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-992909</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to point something out: the workflow on Feedbooks is in no way similar to what Smashwords or Manybooks does.
They basically act like a front-end for conversion softwares (Calibre in Manybooks case) while Feedbooks is much more similar to a real XML workflow, where you represent the structure of the text (for the table of contents or the template) and semantic elements too (footnotes for example). Such a workflow is much more flexible and powerful and can easily evolve thanks to a better source format than just plain text or HTML.
The web-based publishing is just a front-end for our web-service and could be replaced by something else (desktop based, mobile, web interface on a different website, you name it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to point something out: the workflow on Feedbooks is in no way similar to what Smashwords or Manybooks does.<br />
They basically act like a front-end for conversion softwares (Calibre in Manybooks case) while Feedbooks is much more similar to a real XML workflow, where you represent the structure of the text (for the table of contents or the template) and semantic elements too (footnotes for example). Such a workflow is much more flexible and powerful and can easily evolve thanks to a better source format than just plain text or HTML.<br />
The web-based publishing is just a front-end for our web-service and could be replaced by something else (desktop based, mobile, web interface on a different website, you name it).</p>
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		<title>By: David Rothman</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-992825</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rothman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-992825</guid>
		<description>Hi, Christine...your answers... 

ePub exists after many years of efforts by technical people and publishers to come up with an optimized standard for e-books---something fit for just about everything, from simple-layout novels to scientific, technical and mathematical works with complex requirements for presentation  

Adobe is just one member of the IDPF. Jon Noring and I dislike DRM, and my own feeligs against it have actually intensified in recent years (even though I&#039;d reluctantly agree to DRMed distributions of my own writings, because the would-be monopolists at Amazon and the rest leave us with no choice). We used OpenReader.org to jog the IDPF into finally taking e-book standards seriously. We had this bizarre idea that e-books ought to be as easy to buy and own as audio CDs.

Yes, public libraries can exist without DRM. One possibility would be &quot;permanent check outs&quot;---books that patrons could keep forever but not distribute in public. The books could use social DRM, with patron-specific information included in files, rather than traditional DRM. 

What&#039;s more, especially once WiMax or equivalent took off, libraries could let people browse individual, password-protected URLs for limited periods of time. People could still pirate, technically; but then they can with traditional DRM just by scanning p-books. Perhaps the files for remote browsing would also have patron-specific information embedded.

I don&#039;t see traditional DRM as vanishing immediately from libraries, but as you can see, there are alternatives well worth exploring. I also think that shorter, fairer copyright terms could help a lot by bringing more books into the public domain, so libraries could just give books away rather than simply lending them. In some cases perhaps a TeleRead-style library system could buy up copyrights so that in effect they expired ahead of time. I&#039;d love to see a lot more DRM-free books public domain books for &lt;a href=&quot;http://finding-free-ebooks.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;your useful free-books roundup&lt;/a&gt; to point to.

Thanks,
David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Christine&#8230;your answers&#8230; </p>
<p>ePub exists after many years of efforts by technical people and publishers to come up with an optimized standard for e-books&#8212;something fit for just about everything, from simple-layout novels to scientific, technical and mathematical works with complex requirements for presentation  </p>
<p>Adobe is just one member of the IDPF. Jon Noring and I dislike DRM, and my own feeligs against it have actually intensified in recent years (even though I&#8217;d reluctantly agree to DRMed distributions of my own writings, because the would-be monopolists at Amazon and the rest leave us with no choice). We used OpenReader.org to jog the IDPF into finally taking e-book standards seriously. We had this bizarre idea that e-books ought to be as easy to buy and own as audio CDs.</p>
<p>Yes, public libraries can exist without DRM. One possibility would be &#8220;permanent check outs&#8221;&#8212;books that patrons could keep forever but not distribute in public. The books could use social DRM, with patron-specific information included in files, rather than traditional DRM. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, especially once WiMax or equivalent took off, libraries could let people browse individual, password-protected URLs for limited periods of time. People could still pirate, technically; but then they can with traditional DRM just by scanning p-books. Perhaps the files for remote browsing would also have patron-specific information embedded.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see traditional DRM as vanishing immediately from libraries, but as you can see, there are alternatives well worth exploring. I also think that shorter, fairer copyright terms could help a lot by bringing more books into the public domain, so libraries could just give books away rather than simply lending them. In some cases perhaps a TeleRead-style library system could buy up copyrights so that in effect they expired ahead of time. I&#8217;d love to see a lot more DRM-free books public domain books for <a href="http://finding-free-ebooks.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">your useful free-books roundup</a> to point to.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
David</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-992786</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-992786</guid>
		<description>David, 

What I don&#039;t understand is why epub isn&#039;t just another adobe drm format. You&#039;re advocating no drm at all? So what&#039;s wrong with drm-less other formats? I&#039;m clearly not getting why epub is so special.

And I have a question about ebook libraries - without drm they can&#039;t exist, right? Or do you advocate drm for that purpose? (Time limited use of borrowed library books.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, </p>
<p>What I don&#8217;t understand is why epub isn&#8217;t just another adobe drm format. You&#8217;re advocating no drm at all? So what&#8217;s wrong with drm-less other formats? I&#8217;m clearly not getting why epub is so special.</p>
<p>And I have a question about ebook libraries &#8211; without drm they can&#8217;t exist, right? Or do you advocate drm for that purpose? (Time limited use of borrowed library books.)</p>
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		<title>By: David Rothman</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-992775</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rothman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-992775</guid>
		<description>Christine, many thanks for sharing your experiences. Sorry they weren&#039;t as happy s mine. I&#039;d love to hear from others about Feedbooks (pro or con), as well as from Hadrien on the issue of changes. Did he follow through on at least some of your suggestions?

Thanks,
David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christine, many thanks for sharing your experiences. Sorry they weren&#8217;t as happy s mine. I&#8217;d love to hear from others about Feedbooks (pro or con), as well as from Hadrien on the issue of changes. Did he follow through on at least some of your suggestions?</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
David</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.org/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-992745</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 04:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/12/26/easy-to-learn-publishing-tool-from-feedbooks-reach-kindles-sony-readers-iphones-and-help-the-epub-standard/#comment-992745</guid>
		<description>I tried to add a large file that was more complex than simply adding plain text over and over again. It needed more formatting and at times I had to go back and try to add in something previously missed. I found feedbooks to be very difficult to work with, very slow loading, very difficult to view the whole chapter I was working on at one time, the view kept jumping to the top, several other problems. It was a big difficult ordeal and I gave up after a few days. I can format it easier myself with html and that&#039;s just what I&#039;m going to do. I&#039;ve gotten about a third of the way done now.

I don&#039;t know if feedbooks made any changes, I certainly suggested some, but if not and you want to do anything beyond a few straight text chapters, it&#039;s not easy. At least that was my experiece.

By the way, manybooks.net also provides epub format books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried to add a large file that was more complex than simply adding plain text over and over again. It needed more formatting and at times I had to go back and try to add in something previously missed. I found feedbooks to be very difficult to work with, very slow loading, very difficult to view the whole chapter I was working on at one time, the view kept jumping to the top, several other problems. It was a big difficult ordeal and I gave up after a few days. I can format it easier myself with html and that&#8217;s just what I&#8217;m going to do. I&#8217;ve gotten about a third of the way done now.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if feedbooks made any changes, I certainly suggested some, but if not and you want to do anything beyond a few straight text chapters, it&#8217;s not easy. At least that was my experiece.</p>
<p>By the way, manybooks.net also provides epub format books.</p>
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